U.S. Scale Masters

USSMA General Discussions => Flightline Chatter => Topic started by: Lawrence Harville on Thu, 11/01/12, 12:46 AM

Title: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Lawrence Harville on Thu, 11/01/12, 12:46 AM
Mitch--Bernie--or anybody else who knows the answers

I have done SM for a long time and have NEVER understood exactly WHO is making the rule changes
is there discussion ?
if so  is the discussion public?
or will we just be suprised by changes

if THEY? take the poll on this site about normiliztion=so far only 19 people have voted-and how many of them even compete in contest

is it a secret who makes the rules?
if you say the board
WHO is on the board?
seem like a possibe change should be put out and discussion should be open   not in secret

my opinion is DO CHANGE ANYTHING focus on getting more scale flyers
we're going become irrelivant if we make it harder to enter SM  its like re arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic

what is the purpose of rule changes
 what we have works -quit fixing it
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Mitchell Baker on Thu, 11/01/12, 09:03 AM
Some very good points Lawrence...  I'm going to address the ones I can....

Mitch--Bernie--or anybody else who knows the answers

I have done SM for a long time and have NEVER understood exactly WHO is making the rule changes
is there discussion ?
if so  is the discussion public?
or will we just be suprised by changes


The current process for guide/rule changes as outlined in the current guide is a USSMA member has to submit the change thought the web site via the "submit change" link, or in writing to me.  Then it is suppose to go to a committee.  At that point it is up to the committee on what to bring public, gather more info and then provide a proposal of the change to the board.  That has been the process I have know about since I have been involved with USSMA.  The only change I know of to that process was to encourage use of the web site to submit the change.  Right or wrong, that is the current way.

Quote
if THEY? take the poll on this site about normiliztion=so far only 19 people have voted-and how many of them even compete in contest

is it a secret who makes the rules?
if you say the board
WHO is on the board?
seem like a possibe change should be put out and discussion should be open   not in secret


Good question about "they"  Officially the board is the NC East/West Vice president (or Vice Chair depending on who you talk to, but same position) the Director of Finance and Director of Administration. 

Then you can add advisers to the NC, but don't have a board vote just input.

Then there are committees. These are any the NC wants to appoint to look into something.  The "rule" committee mentioned in the guide has been floundering over the last several years.  Jeff Whitney has been listed as the chair of that committee and I have tried to work with him to refine the process to eliminate this "last minute change".  The problem he has had in the past (before this year) getting people to site on the committee with him to discuss items brought up, mostly by members, discuss them, refine them and present them to the board in a way that can be added to the guide in an easy manner.  This year it seems he was totally bypassed and much of the process was bypassed by the NC.  I don't think Jeff is really heart broken over this, I just think it is kinda rude for him to be treated that way. 

In the past, most of the changes that have come up started as discussions here in the forums.  One it is submitted to the committee, it is up to them to see if they feel they need more input. Any poll taken has to be looked at from within the environment here.  No, we don't know who those responding to the poll are.  The only requirement on that poll is they are a registered member of the forums. And the poll was just to get a general feel, just like the one over on R C Scale Builder Web Site (http://www.rcscalebuilder.com). Just informal to see what people thing. I like what I see in the normalization discussion.  Lots of public input.  And yes we need more of that.

Part of the problem is many scale builders/pilots are not real computer savvy.  And USSMA in general seems to be a little further behind.  Good or bad, who knows.  But USSMA has been slower to adapt to technology to aid in communicating to members.  Before I setup the "Submit" link on the forums, and gave the general public the ability to discuss items, the process was to mail in the proposed change, then it was forwarded to Jeff and from there I don't know what.. But much more behind closed doors simply because there was no place to discuss it publicly. Except maybe to post it in the newsletter and wait for anyone to respond.    Same goes with the Judges training.  I have fought for years to get the test put online and even allow it to be taken online.  Maybe we can get that some day soon. 

But it also seems many don't care.  Since posting the 2012 BoD minutes on the 25th, there have been 7 views and 5 downloads.

I do think that a public discussion should start most all guide changes that affect pilots, CD's judges, etc. At some point though, any change discussion has to go to a smaller group to finalize the details to present to the board.  You will never get anything done if you keep a public discussion going.

Quote
my opinion is DO CHANGE ANYTHING focus on getting more scale flyers
we're going become irrelivant if we make it harder to enter SM  its like re arranging the deck chairs on the Titantic

what is the purpose of rule changes
 what we have works -quit fixing it


Some feel that in order to get more scale flyers there are some rules that need to be changed.  Like the NC believing that renaming Fun Scale to ProAm Sport and Open to ProAm Pro and allowing ProAm Sport to become a championship event, which as you can see from the BoD Meeting Minutes, was voted on 4 to 1.

The one item that I do believe will help things, at least the total number who get qualified is a proposal that was made by the late Chuck Maitre and I also think Mel chimed in on this, is the change the qualifying requirement from a % of contestants to a minimum total score.  If no one makes the minimum score, then a 33% rule (as before only 33% up from the 30%) would come into play. This has been discussed in a committee and the board will be voting on this soon. 

I agree, the only thing wrong with the current set of classes is our (Board, members) lack of educating others on how they work and how thy compare to AMA classes.  Also, as has been mentioned several times in the forums, the only thing that is going to get more people competing, is to have us, current builders and flyers, mentor others to spark interest.

Ok, I have rambled way to much...  Thanks for the questions and comments... We need more.. in here, at the fields and at club meetings... That is the only way to build up participation.

See-ya
Mitch

Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Lawrence Harville on Thu, 11/01/12, 10:04 AM
Thanks Mitch
I do agree with changing the Names of the classes
I dont agree with changing the rules of the game
what we have works-quit adding STUFF and just let us compete

I would hope the LEADERS of USSMA do not listen to the guys who make suggestions but dont compete-or work in contest-we dont need an orgization runs by a bunch of armchair quarterbacks who make rules and dont have to live by them

To get some OWNERSHIP of any changes
how about this
Include the guys who compete-go to the contest or work in contest  how about that
WHEN
Since there are no meetings and not an efficent way of talking to anyone and only a small handfull of guys are involved in making/discussing rules
HOW about a meeting at the US Championships-open to the contestants
then at least  the guys living under the rules would be allowed to communicate with the Leaders of USSMA

I think at one Championship event there was a rumor of  a meeting of the LEADERS but us common folk were not invited or encouraged to attend or participate
we assumed we would be told-like obedient children-what the adults had decided

maybe the lack of membership, lower turnout in qualifiers and tthe championship
is because the USSMA is getting futher out of touch with the guys who WANT to compete

Since there are no meetings-discussions or communication by
The Leaders except for Bernie, Jeff and you  the others almost are non existent on here- do the others just make decision? based on what they indivudially feel?
If they dont want to bother with involvement with the members-they should resign and let someone who wants to be active in USSMA

Like all who write on here--am I just talking to myself or is anybody in USMA leadership-listening to anybody
Discussion-ownership- involvement-participation
Thanks again for Mitch- Bernie -Jeff W
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Mitchell Baker on Thu, 11/01/12, 10:37 AM
Thanks Mitch
I do agree with changing the Names of the classes
I dont agree with changing the rules of the game
what we have works-quit adding STUFF and just let us compete

Why do you think the class name change is good? 

You don't think changing the qualification requirements, would allow more to qualify?  Why? 

We have announced and tried to have open meeting at the champs.. no one showed up.. Had a few for one in the ZapTap room this past year just before the board meeting.. Also anyone was welcome to sit in, but we did have a strict agenda to get through..

See-ya
Mitch
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: j_whitney on Thu, 11/01/12, 09:45 PM
Lawrence - thanks for your input.  I have enjoyed our conversations and look forward to more.

As Mitch said, the comittee has kind of died.  Last time - I think it was 2011 - I literally could not get anyone to respond.  I have tried to find members from all across the country to participate - usually good for one go-round then they fade into the sunset.  It is even more difficult when you don't know them personally.

Next time it comes around I will try and enlist CDs  - like yourself - because they probably talk to more contestants than a "regular" contestant does.

Meanwhile, since it is after Oct 31 deadline - do you have any suggestions for 2014?  Anything that is much of a change will most likely go on the books with notice to all that it will be implemented in the following year.

Thanks again Lawrence!

Jeff
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Cubcrafter on Sun, 11/04/12, 04:41 PM
Mitch,

Just where is this posted on the site. ???

"But it also seems many don't care.  Since posting the 2012 BoD minutes on the 25th, there have been 7 views and 5 downloads."

Larry
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: j_whitney on Sun, 11/04/12, 04:53 PM
I had to look quite a bit to find it too - on the home page, just about the announcement for the 2013 champs
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Mitchell Baker on Mon, 11/05/12, 12:38 PM
But you have to be a USSMA member to have access to them. --Mitch
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Roly on Wed, 12/19/12, 05:18 PM
Hello All, I had a quick read of the discussion, a lot of topics covered and do have some observations/suggestions;

- Membership If we are looking to have a good membership base with the $20.00 go with the $20.00/donation and have the option on the membership page.
              - Judges should have a automatic membership - free, darn look what they have do to to support what we are doing and what recognition are they given?

- Advisers: We have Area Coordinators and Directors, part of these roles are to provide feedback to the organization use them, just ask for feedback throughout the year. CD's are another source - ask them as well; after the event through Area Coordinators/Directors. Set the expectations out at the start of the year.

- Guidelines: They just need to be kept current with the times,tweaked each year and timely published;  utilize the people taking on the roles of supporting the program to improve through the judges and contestants. Needs focus to coordinate through one person and that's all they do for SM. These Guidelines are the "Heart of Scale Masters" utilized by & for judges and contestants they need to be; easy to understand, have a good flow and organized for their success.

What we do for judges and pilots - is the "System" what the Pilots do is the "Process" (using the system). When the "System" takes priority over the "Process"  it's a downhill slide.

- Focus of "Keeping the Dream Alive" are the Pilots and Judges - Listen to them and respond and we will be successful.

- Regionally if the "Process" focuses on the Fun Scale events Qualifiers will grow from the resources from those events. May be slow at the beginning however when the ball starts to roll it will get big - I think, all we have to do is support/recognize the interested people through scale events at all levels.

This is easy for me to say however with a good "support system", persistence, time and many hands will help keep the "Process" - Scale Aero-Modeling Dream Alive".

My humble opinion.

The Best of the season to you all.

Thanks, Roly

PS: Quote from a very good Industrial Motivator: "If you really want to know what's going on .............. go out and talk to your people."
Title: Re: It if aint broke-quit fixing it
Post by: Mitchell Baker on Thu, 12/20/12, 10:36 AM
Locking this thread at the request of the starter.  His views have changed on the subject.  The request was to delete the thread, but I thought there were some good points that people could reference.   --Mitch